Comments on: The Two Wings of Self-Publishing http://www.selfpublishingreview.com/blog/2009/05/17/the-two-wings-of-self-publishing/ Thu, 29 Jul 2010 15:34:47 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: Gia Brainerd, PhD http://www.selfpublishingreview.com/blog/2009/05/17/the-two-wings-of-self-publishing/comment-page-1/#comment-951 Gia Brainerd, PhD Tue, 28 Jul 2009 00:47:36 +0000 http://www.selfpublishingreview.com/?p=2027#comment-951 I self-published my book because my understanding is that even if a traditional publisher accepts a book from an unknown author, they refuse to do any kind or promotion of marketing, so you may as well do it yourself and receive a higher royalty! I have no fear of having my work scrutinized ruthlessly. My book was reviewed by three professional editors before I let it go out the door. Everyone in my family (including siblings and their families) purchase books (as well as music) exclusively online. Therefore, I'm not so sure about your comment on the relevancy of "brick-and-mortar" bookstores these days. I self-published my book because my understanding is that even if a traditional publisher accepts a book from an unknown author, they refuse to do any kind or promotion of marketing, so you may as well do it yourself and receive a higher royalty!

I have no fear of having my work scrutinized ruthlessly. My book was reviewed by three professional editors before I let it go out the door.

Everyone in my family (including siblings and their families) purchase books (as well as music) exclusively online. Therefore, I’m not so sure about your comment on the relevancy of “brick-and-mortar” bookstores these days.

Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

]]> By: Writing as Hobby | Self-Publishing Review http://www.selfpublishingreview.com/blog/2009/05/17/the-two-wings-of-self-publishing/comment-page-1/#comment-952 Writing as Hobby | Self-Publishing Review Mon, 13 Jul 2009 16:12:18 +0000 http://www.selfpublishingreview.com/?p=2027#comment-952 [...] it’s via a New York contract or selling books independently. Consider this an addendum to the Two Wings of Self-Publishing post - add a third wing: people who publish for the hell of it.  If they get a few reviews, [...] [...] it’s via a New York contract or selling books independently. Consider this an addendum to the Two Wings of Self-Publishing post – add a third wing: people who publish for the hell of it.  If they get a few reviews, [...]

Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

]]> By: Nancy Toomey http://www.selfpublishingreview.com/blog/2009/05/17/the-two-wings-of-self-publishing/comment-page-1/#comment-946 Nancy Toomey Mon, 06 Jul 2009 20:49:02 +0000 http://www.selfpublishingreview.com/?p=2027#comment-946 Just to add to this discussion. I published a novel via a print on demand service as an experiment. I wanted the book in the hands of readers to see what kind of response I would get prior to shopping the book around to agents and publishers. A young adult title, it was very well received by local bookshops, state-wide newspapers, parents, teachers, and readers aged 12 to 90. Problems with this experiment... once it had been offered POD, the assumption that it has been rejected by everyone killed the book's potential when the query letter hit the desk of an agent or publisher. And, as a writer, you cannot possibly reach a wide audience without reviews in significant publications many of whom scoff at POD books for the same reasons, assumptions that it made the rounds first and was rejected everywhere. The process of marketing can be exhaustive. That's why there are writers and there are book marketers, so the writer can have time to write another one! Publisher publish books with flaws. There are a lot of bad books out there that have been vetted through the traditional publishing channel. There are some excellent independent books that simply cannot find the light of day. Websites that shine a bit of light on good works are great outlets for getting the word out about a book. I am very pleased that Indie Reader took on this challenge! Just to add to this discussion. I published a novel via a print on demand service as an experiment. I wanted the book in the hands of readers to see what kind of response I would get prior to shopping the book around to agents and publishers. A young adult title, it was very well received by local bookshops, state-wide newspapers, parents, teachers, and readers aged 12 to 90.
Problems with this experiment… once it had been offered POD, the assumption that it has been rejected by everyone killed the book’s potential when the query letter hit the desk of an agent or publisher. And, as a writer, you cannot possibly reach a wide audience without reviews in significant publications many of whom scoff at POD books for the same reasons, assumptions that it made the rounds first and was rejected everywhere. The process of marketing can be exhaustive. That’s why there are writers and there are book marketers, so the writer can have time to write another one!
Publisher publish books with flaws. There are a lot of bad books out there that have been vetted through the traditional publishing channel. There are some excellent independent books that simply cannot find the light of day. Websites that shine a bit of light on good works are great outlets for getting the word out about a book.
I am very pleased that Indie Reader took on this challenge!

Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

]]> By: Zoe Winters http://www.selfpublishingreview.com/blog/2009/05/17/the-two-wings-of-self-publishing/comment-page-1/#comment-953 Zoe Winters Mon, 25 May 2009 09:06:46 +0000 http://www.selfpublishingreview.com/?p=2027#comment-953 Holy crap, I was quotable? :D I will say, and have said before, that I am not against traditional success, even for myself. If I succeeded as an indie and a major NY pub offered me a great contract, I would consider it. I would seriously consider it for mass-market paperback rights, and would consider it for other rights if the offer was really good. i.e. if the offer could push me beyond what I believe I can do on my own. I would also actively seek out the selling of foreign rights if I got to the point where I could realistically sell those rights through an agent, based on the work I'd done to sell my work domestically, whether I ever worked with a NY publisher or not. As for "intense critical analysis" LOLOLOLOLOLOL sorry, I haven't seen much of that in my genre in NY publishing in quite awhile. And I love vampire erotica... provided it's well written. :P May even write some of it myself. I'm also with Mojo about the "manifestation of the DIY personality." Some of us just don't want to run on that hamster wheel. Now if we were discovered through our efforts, then "maybe" if the deal was good. But the deal would have to actually be good. I also echo a lot of what Becky says above. The gatekeepers have gotten very lax, and frankly at this point I don't trust them with my work. I don't trust them not to put an intern to work editing my book because all their editors are too busy doing non-editing related activities. I don't trust them not to stick me with a crappy cover. I don't trust them to actually push my book beyond what I could do on my own. I don't trust them on anything really. I feel they have less potential of F'ing my book up if I bring it to market first. Given the fact that most works of fiction don't truly "break out" and for those that don't, I believe I can achieve that level of success on my own, unless I was looking at a break-out type of book, with a really good contract, trad publishers are just irrelevant to me. I don't rise or fall based on whether NY ever wants me. Holy crap, I was quotable? :D

I will say, and have said before, that I am not against traditional success, even for myself. If I succeeded as an indie and a major NY pub offered me a great contract, I would consider it. I would seriously consider it for mass-market paperback rights, and would consider it for other rights if the offer was really good. i.e. if the offer could push me beyond what I believe I can do on my own.

I would also actively seek out the selling of foreign rights if I got to the point where I could realistically sell those rights through an agent, based on the work I’d done to sell my work domestically, whether I ever worked with a NY publisher or not.

As for “intense critical analysis” LOLOLOLOLOLOL sorry, I haven’t seen much of that in my genre in NY publishing in quite awhile.

And I love vampire erotica… provided it’s well written. :P May even write some of it myself.

I’m also with Mojo about the “manifestation of the DIY personality.” Some of us just don’t want to run on that hamster wheel. Now if we were discovered through our efforts, then “maybe” if the deal was good. But the deal would have to actually be good.

I also echo a lot of what Becky says above. The gatekeepers have gotten very lax, and frankly at this point I don’t trust them with my work. I don’t trust them not to put an intern to work editing my book because all their editors are too busy doing non-editing related activities. I don’t trust them not to stick me with a crappy cover. I don’t trust them to actually push my book beyond what I could do on my own. I don’t trust them on anything really. I feel they have less potential of F’ing my book up if I bring it to market first.

Given the fact that most works of fiction don’t truly “break out” and for those that don’t, I believe I can achieve that level of success on my own, unless I was looking at a break-out type of book, with a really good contract, trad publishers are just irrelevant to me.

I don’t rise or fall based on whether NY ever wants me.

Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

]]> By: Tessa Dick http://www.selfpublishingreview.com/blog/2009/05/17/the-two-wings-of-self-publishing/comment-page-1/#comment-939 Tessa Dick Mon, 18 May 2009 23:57:31 +0000 http://www.selfpublishingreview.com/?p=2027#comment-939 good point, K.B.Brege! I've actually asked reviewers to accept free copies of my books -- and been turned down or totally ignored! ~~~ good point, K.B.Brege!
I’ve actually asked reviewers to accept free copies of my books — and been turned down or totally ignored!
~~~

Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

]]> By: K.B.Brege http://www.selfpublishingreview.com/blog/2009/05/17/the-two-wings-of-self-publishing/comment-page-1/#comment-938 K.B.Brege Mon, 18 May 2009 20:56:48 +0000 http://www.selfpublishingreview.com/?p=2027#comment-938 As a self-publisher of a successful children's book series, I have to say that I don't belong to any camp...except making sure that I put the best product out there, do the best marketing I can, and get my books selling from the bookstore shelves. I think that there are pro's and con's to both traditional and self-publishing. It just depends on if you want to steer your own ship or not. My pro side to self-publishing is that nobody can ever take my book out of print but me. I will never need more than one accountant to figure out crazy accounting practices, such as why I have to work off my pittance of an advance for years-before I see another dime (if the book remains in print), and nobody can tell me that my terrific Art Director husband cannot be the illustrator of my covers. As far as your idea's of not wanting to be reviewed, and that having something to do with not wanting to be published traditionally...are you kidding me? Bring it on! Most of them won't touch a self-published book...so please don't tell self-publishers that we don't want to be taken seriously, we work hard for our success...Maybe it's time the reviewers and the so-called established media open their eyes, and realize there are some wonderful self-published books to review, unless the Traditional houses-that send them scores of books, would be irritated at that. Hmmm, kind-of makes you wonder why they won't review us, doesn't it? As a self-publisher of a successful children’s book series, I have to say that I don’t belong to any camp…except making sure that I put the best product out there, do the best marketing I can, and get my books selling from the bookstore shelves. I think that there are pro’s and con’s to both traditional and self-publishing. It just depends on if you want to steer your own ship or not. My pro side to self-publishing is that nobody can ever take my book out of print but me. I will never need more than one accountant to figure out crazy accounting practices, such as why I have to work off my pittance of an advance for years-before I see another dime (if the book remains in print), and nobody can tell me that my terrific Art Director husband cannot be the illustrator of my covers. As far as your idea’s of not wanting to be reviewed, and that having something to do with not wanting to be published traditionally…are you kidding me? Bring it on! Most of them won’t touch a self-published book…so please don’t tell self-publishers that we don’t want to be taken seriously, we work hard for our success…Maybe it’s time the reviewers and the so-called established media open their eyes, and realize there are some wonderful self-published books to review, unless the Traditional houses-that send them scores of books, would be irritated at that. Hmmm, kind-of makes you wonder why they won’t review us, doesn’t it?

Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

]]> By: Cheryl Anne Gardner http://www.selfpublishingreview.com/blog/2009/05/17/the-two-wings-of-self-publishing/comment-page-1/#comment-945 Cheryl Anne Gardner Mon, 18 May 2009 12:55:54 +0000 http://www.selfpublishingreview.com/?p=2027#comment-945 I think your “camps” might be a bit off based on the comments you made about fear, gatekeepers, critical analysis, and trust. I see the camps divided this way: 1. The Delusional 2. The Not We know all about the delusional self-pub author: the ones who attack reviewers, the ones who staunchly oppose traditional publishing with no knowledge of the process—the ones who think they will make millions on the internet with their poorly edited self-published book. For some, it’s simply naiveté, and for others, they actually believe their own bombast. That’s everywhere, and I don’t think it is representative of the true entrepreneurial spirit of most self-published authors, certainly not the ones I have met. The “NOT” delusional understand the finer workings of both publishing models; they care about quality of product; they invest in their art; and more importantly, not all of them have disdain for the traditional publishing model. Some are using it as a stepping-stone; some just want to do their own thing, and if they get a book deal down the road, it’s nice; and lastly, some have no interest in the traditional model at all. Whatever the reason, be assured it is a valid well thought out reason: The” NOTs” are realistic in their expectations, and they certainly don’t write off the gatekeepers. The gatekeepers are just different on this side of the fence. The Pod review sites have become the gatekeepers in a sense. If the authors didn’t want critical opinion, they would have all their friends give them 5 star reviews on Amazon and not even bother submitting to us. I talk to many authors, and most of them fall into the “Not” category. Many delusionals will eventually migrate over to the “NOT” camp, for those where it was a case of naive excitement and not true delusion. Reality eventually comes crashing down upon them and they get serious. Sadly, some delusionals will remain right where they are. It’s a constant flux, and I don’t think a misplaced fulcrum is going to affect anything in the end, despite what the media spin says about it. Traditional Publishing will go on with or without us. There are enough authors who want the traditional deal, and there are enough who don’t to keep it interesting. I am all for anarchy, especially anarchy for art, but the reality of it is, half of this Indie revolution stuff is nothing more than static right now. Me, what’s my stand? Well, I write novellas. Stand-alone novellas are cost-prohibitive for the traditional publishing industry, but people still want to read them. E-publishers have taken up some of the slack in the genre, but too much of it is niche fiction and not true “novellas” from a literary standpoint. I just love the genre and have no desire to write anything else. Secondly, I have a career. I don’t need another one. I write because I love the art of it. I can’t stop writing, and I put it out there simply because I want to share it. Lastly, I do happen to care about the traditional publishing model. It might hold no interest for me, personally, but I wouldn’t call it sidestepping. Not to mention, I volunteer my services to help other authors here and there with query letters and/or a book proposals. Hell, it’s why I became an Indie reviewer: to help writers get where they want to go. Writers are artists, and to attempt to draw a hard-line to define them, or to make assumptions about their individual motivations, is ill advised. The playing field is too varied to draw such lines of demarcation. I think your “camps” might be a bit off based on the comments you made about fear, gatekeepers, critical analysis, and trust. I see the camps divided this way:

1. The Delusional
2. The Not

We know all about the delusional self-pub author: the ones who attack reviewers, the ones who staunchly oppose traditional publishing with no knowledge of the process—the ones who think they will make millions on the internet with their poorly edited self-published book. For some, it’s simply naiveté, and for others, they actually believe their own bombast. That’s everywhere, and I don’t think it is representative of the true entrepreneurial spirit of most self-published authors, certainly not the ones I have met. The “NOT” delusional understand the finer workings of both publishing models; they care about quality of product; they invest in their art; and more importantly, not all of them have disdain for the traditional publishing model. Some are using it as a stepping-stone; some just want to do their own thing, and if they get a book deal down the road, it’s nice; and lastly, some have no interest in the traditional model at all. Whatever the reason, be assured it is a valid well thought out reason: The” NOTs” are realistic in their expectations, and they certainly don’t write off the gatekeepers. The gatekeepers are just different on this side of the fence. The Pod review sites have become the gatekeepers in a sense. If the authors didn’t want critical opinion, they would have all their friends give them 5 star reviews on Amazon and not even bother submitting to us.

I talk to many authors, and most of them fall into the “Not” category. Many delusionals will eventually migrate over to the “NOT” camp, for those where it was a case of naive excitement and not true delusion. Reality eventually comes crashing down upon them and they get serious. Sadly, some delusionals will remain right where they are. It’s a constant flux, and I don’t think a misplaced fulcrum is going to affect anything in the end, despite what the media spin says about it. Traditional Publishing will go on with or without us. There are enough authors who want the traditional deal, and there are enough who don’t to keep it interesting. I am all for anarchy, especially anarchy for art, but the reality of it is, half of this Indie revolution stuff is nothing more than static right now.

Me, what’s my stand? Well, I write novellas. Stand-alone novellas are cost-prohibitive for the traditional publishing industry, but people still want to read them. E-publishers have taken up some of the slack in the genre, but too much of it is niche fiction and not true “novellas” from a literary standpoint. I just love the genre and have no desire to write anything else. Secondly, I have a career. I don’t need another one. I write because I love the art of it. I can’t stop writing, and I put it out there simply because I want to share it. Lastly, I do happen to care about the traditional publishing model. It might hold no interest for me, personally, but I wouldn’t call it sidestepping. Not to mention, I volunteer my services to help other authors here and there with query letters and/or a book proposals. Hell, it’s why I became an Indie reviewer: to help writers get where they want to go. Writers are artists, and to attempt to draw a hard-line to define them, or to make assumptions about their individual motivations, is ill advised. The playing field is too varied to draw such lines of demarcation.

Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

]]> By: Todd Newton http://www.selfpublishingreview.com/blog/2009/05/17/the-two-wings-of-self-publishing/comment-page-1/#comment-937 Todd Newton Mon, 18 May 2009 03:40:17 +0000 http://www.selfpublishingreview.com/?p=2027#comment-937 Very interesting post. I fall firmly in the 1) camp, even use the words "stepping stone" to describe it, but I think I will definitely self-publish again at some point in the future even if I do get a "deal." The reason for this is because there are bound to be projects an agent or publisher doesn't want, or things I want to retain full creative control over from start to finish. Now that I know what to expect, especially, I think it's a very interesting and desirable alternative even while traditionally published work is out there turning heads and selling copies. Very interesting post. I fall firmly in the 1) camp, even use the words “stepping stone” to describe it, but I think I will definitely self-publish again at some point in the future even if I do get a “deal.” The reason for this is because there are bound to be projects an agent or publisher doesn’t want, or things I want to retain full creative control over from start to finish. Now that I know what to expect, especially, I think it’s a very interesting and desirable alternative even while traditionally published work is out there turning heads and selling copies.

Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

]]> By: Becky http://www.selfpublishingreview.com/blog/2009/05/17/the-two-wings-of-self-publishing/comment-page-1/#comment-935 Becky Sun, 17 May 2009 22:26:06 +0000 http://www.selfpublishingreview.com/?p=2027#comment-935 Given the - hum - quality of some of the things coming out Traditional Publishing houses at the moment (and becoming popular no less) I'd say that anyone who wants to avoid the Gatekeeper is clearly unaware of how lax said Gatekeeper has become. Or maybe they are just aware how capricious he is. People who say they don't care about Traditional Publishing generally mean they don't trust Traditional Publishing and are therefore avoiding it. As you say it's corrupt and you can't blame people for avoiding something corrupt. Given the – hum – quality of some of the things coming out Traditional Publishing houses at the moment (and becoming popular no less) I’d say that anyone who wants to avoid the Gatekeeper is clearly unaware of how lax said Gatekeeper has become. Or maybe they are just aware how capricious he is.

People who say they don’t care about Traditional Publishing generally mean they don’t trust Traditional Publishing and are therefore avoiding it. As you say it’s corrupt and you can’t blame people for avoiding something corrupt.

Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

]]> By: Tessa Dick http://www.selfpublishingreview.com/blog/2009/05/17/the-two-wings-of-self-publishing/comment-page-1/#comment-936 Tessa Dick Sun, 17 May 2009 18:32:48 +0000 http://www.selfpublishingreview.com/?p=2027#comment-936 I, for one, would love to have a traditional publisher take the burden of promotion and distribution off of my shoulders. However, self-publishing has given me the opportunity to get my work out there, and listed on Amazon, when the traditional publishers refuse to touch my work. They're afraid of a [frivolous] law suit that the Philip K. Dick Trust has threatened. Ironically, these same publishers would snatch up unauthorized and even libelous biographies of celebrities in a heartbeat, law suit or not. I, for one, would love to have a traditional publisher take the burden of promotion and distribution off of my shoulders. However, self-publishing has given me the opportunity to get my work out there, and listed on Amazon, when the traditional publishers refuse to touch my work. They’re afraid of a [frivolous] law suit that the Philip K. Dick Trust has threatened. Ironically, these same publishers would snatch up unauthorized and even libelous biographies of celebrities in a heartbeat, law suit or not.

Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

]]>